 tony banfield
Member
Joined: 21/Oct/2004
Member: 83
Posts: 60
|
Put up yer dukes!!
OK...Queensbury Rules here guys...wussy leather gloves (but no amateur head-protectors), no head-butting ,no hitting below the belt,break when I say....
Introducing in the default Black typeface, the San Mateo Grinder,fighting at a podgy (teehee)***lbs, Jeffrey "Twofer" Castelline!!!! Second: Yuki
(BOOS)
And Challenging ,posting in yummy red,weighing in at a perfect trim (not) ,the Knutsford Grozer,Tony "Whatever" Banfield, Second:Holly The Dog
Crowd goes wild ..yaaaaaaaaay!!!!!!!
Round 1. People used to make wheels out of wood for vehicles. Now they use rubber compounds. I don't buy the, "It was good enough for my Grandaddy so it's good enough for me." bit. 
OK, that's true.....things have moved on. And I haven't bought the reputedly great Twofer grinder heads either (any freebies?)
And an early knockdown to the West Coast Wizard
_____________________________________
2. I'm teaching beginners. They want to be able to do work that is equal to or better than the pros out there now. I teach them what they need to know to do this. If you want to take them and teach them another method and let them choose for themselves, thats fine with me.
but just knowing " YOUR way or the highway" isn't the best in the long run.....I use a wussy grinder myself often, but grozing is equally valid, and can do an equally good job without any of the supposed problems of "edge-cracks"
Yes, some pros will be worse than your students, but many pros are also undoubtedly all-round better..., both cases it depends on their experience of ALL trimming methods, and to learn ONLY grinding is giving a limited repertoire. Do you actually teach grozing at ALL?
I think the challenger wins this round...the more techniques ones learns, the better a glasser one becomes in the end
______________________________________
3. I'm pushing quality, not speed. Speed comes naturally with the methods we use and also gives a better quality product. I'll put any of my students that have done one Tiffany style lamp against anyone you choose. Results: Equal or better than the competition. I'll bet on the later.
I'm not going to be boxed into a debating corner here by making this seem like a quality VERSUS speed issue.They are NOT mutually exclusive, as you WELL know, as a pro maker yourself. But (tagging Vic here from another thread)...."Very good" is better and more productive than PERFECTION. If one gets OBSESSED with hyper-grinding smooth edges that aren't going to be seen, one loses the end-goal of very GOOD (if grozed) edges.
I can see that in a classroom situation like yours (which I'm admittedly only guessing at from an useen distance) , it's EASIER to leave a student to the more foolproof (but longer )mechanized grinding than to have to stay WITH them and examine/adjust their more difficult-at-first grozing on a one-to-one basis.And if you're renting equipment and bench-space by the hour (am I wrong here?) it makes more money for you the slower and machine-dependant they are! (same goes for all that un-necessary glue-ing IMHO)
warning for near-the belt stuff against The British Grozer, but I'm going to allow the fight to continue. Let go my damned leg, willya, yellow dog....whoever you are!
______________________________________
4. The grinder bits are great. I agree, but this debate has been raging for 7 years starting way before the bit development. I have a vested interest in making it possible for people to do high quality art/craft in glass easily in order to bring more people into this shrinking art we love and are passionate about.
No argument with you there...we BOTH want as many people as possible to learn AS MUCH as possible.....and dismissing (and not teaching)such a well-used (in the past AND the present) trimming method as GROZING is not giving learners/improvers ALL the methods they would benefit from.
The art WILL shrink if people think you can only do it with a machine in an expensively-tooled-up shop(typical American attitude...gee ~ there must be a machine that can do this better than my hands). OK .... a grinder is ONLY an electric grozer, but I hope you see what I mean. When the electricity goes off (and it WILL one day), I can groze by tallow/candle light.
and the Knutsford Knibbler comes back with a STUNNING Knockout blow.......poor newbie people who can't afford grinders (yet) are throwing their grozing-pliers in the air and carrying the triumphant "Limey loose- cannon" round the arena in ecstasy (slight bias here by the referee)
______________________________________
5. Anytime you have a different opinion..........post it. We'll let time and the experiences of others sort it all out.
Me...have a different opinion?
Listen, big guy, I can start an argument in an empty house. Okay? 
The referee gives the result ....a DRAW .....
Tony (who's due to give my my lunch).....  :
Jeffrey (meanie catlovin' wuss) ....  
and the promoters will be glad to see a re-match between the Californian Twofer and the British Teeth-Grozer any time
______________________________
tony banfield |
